Joint Forum Panel Minutes 20 October 2004

MINUTES FOR THE JOINT GOVERNMENT VOLUNTARY AND COMMUNITY SECTOR FORUM MEETING ON 20 OCTOBER 2004 AT 10:30AM, NICVA.

Present
Dave Wall, Joint Chair
Jimmy Kearney, Joint Chair

Sector

Chris Ball, Community Arts Forum
Lynn Carvill, Organisation of the Unemployed
Patricia Cooke, Community Network Portadown
Liz Cuddy, Rethink
Jim Deery, Greater New Lodge Community Forum
Niall Fitzduff, Rural Community Network
Jane Gribbin, Ballymena Community Forum
Maurice Leeson, Barnardo's
Olwen Lyner, NIACRO
Marcas Mac Ruairi, POBAL
Seamus McAleavey, NICVA
Elaine McElduff, Children in Northern Ireland
Patricia Haren, Women’s Support Network
Carol O’Bryan, Simon Community
Anne O’Reilly, WRDA
Denis Palmer, Youthnet

Government

Tom Hunter, DEL
Alex Boyle, DOE
Irene McAlister, DETI
Patricia McVeigh, DHSSPS
Agnes Killen, DCAL
Liz Stewart, DRD
David Lennox, VCU
Esther Moore, DARD
Carolyn Barr, DFP
Ken Fraser, OFMDFM
Seamus Murray, VCU
John Turkington, VCU
Marie Abbott, VCU

Secretariat

Zoë Anderson, NICVA
Frances McCandless , NICVA
Lorraine Walls, VCU

Visitors

Joanne Crone, Scottish Executive
Stephen Maxwell , SCVO
Neil Irwin , NICVA
Jack Palmer, DCAL
Richard Holmes, DCAL
Una Downey, VCU

1. Welcome and Introductions

Dave Wall welcomed everyone to the meeting and asked that everyone introduce themselves as there are so many new members.

2. Apologies

Apologies were received from Peter McNaney, Patricia McAuley, Angela Clarke, June Ingram, Billy Gamble, Marian McIlhone, Gerry McWhinney, Tom Kiernan and Tom Clarke, and Seamus McAleavey for the morning session.

3. Minutes of Meeting on 20 May 2004

The minutes were agreed to be an accurate record of the meeting.

4. Matters arising

i. New Workplan / Planning Day

Dave Wall apologised to members for the change in the schedule of meetings and explained that this was due to waiting for the Taskforce report to be published, as it will have such a wide impact on the work of the Forum. The Planning Day takes place on 16 November and will be facilitated by BDS (Business Development Services, which is part of DFP). We are considering inviting a speaker from Wales .

ii. A Shared Future

Ken Fraser from OFMDFM briefed the meeting. He works in the Race Equality Unit and the intention is to publish both the Race Equality and Good Relations Strategies at the same time. This is hoped to be towards the end of 2004, though it will depend on political developments. A draft of the Good Relations Strategy is currently being finalised for discussion with the political parties and key stakeholders.

He reminded members that the hate crime inquiry is continuing and that they will be visiting Northern Ireland again on 24 October to take further evidence. A special group of the Race Forum is to be set up, which will focus on practical steps to help minority communities. Details of this will be issued soon.

iii. Section 75 Consultation

This has been a subject of considerable discussion for the Forum and the Consultation Sub-group over the past few years. OFMDFM have been waiting for the outcome of both the Taskforce and E-government reports before finalising this. We hope to have a final document by the time of the next Forum meeting. Many lessons have been learned from the Taskforce about how to develop effective consultation, as the process of consulting on it worked well.

iv. Review of Public Administration

Following a presentation at the last Forum meeting, a meeting was arranged by NICVA in August for network organisations to have further input into the consultation. The reason for this was because many organisations did not respond to the initial consultation as it involved too many issues. The meeting looked at some areas that hadn’t been fully explored, such as community planning, the role of the sector and where decisions are made, as well as what will happen in the transition period between one system of administration and another. This process could have a significant impact on the work of the whole sector. There was also concern over the vacuum that will ensue when the system changes and that we need to begin to think about how to deal with this.

As the paper from the review is due out in November, with a standard consultation period, it will be too late to have any substantive discussion at the next Forum meeting in February, so a special meeting of the Forum is proposed to focus on the Review. This will be set for early January and a date will be agreed and circulated.

v. New Targeting Social Need

Dave Wall informed the meeting that the consultation had been extended to mid-October and over fifty responses had been received to date. The next stage will be a targeted consultation with key stakeholders which will last for four weeks, and a seminar at the School of Governance . It is hoped that the policy will be finalised by April 2005. Worries were raised about this planned consultation and that there continues to be nothing quantifiable to consult about.

NICVA advised that they have submitted a lobbying paper which has been signed by 177 organisations, so in fact the total number of responses received is 49 plus 177. The paper puts forward a list of points which could make a real difference in addressing social need.

There were concerns from members that during the transition from TSN to an Anti-Poverty Strategy, much of the good work done by the PSI Working Groups (on eg older people, carers and homelessness) could be lost or the issues overlooked. Could the Forum encourage OFMDFM to evidence the progress made on the PSI groups? The PSI system should be used constructively as an opportunity for action and research on large themes. Ken Fraser stated that from a Race Equality point of view, the PSI work certainly does have a future, in the race forum that he mentioned previously and the work being done on travellers. Dave Wall asked for any concerns to be forwarded to him in writing, which he refer to Gerry Mulligan for comments.

The Forum also discussed the resourcing issue. There was discussion around this as part of NICVA’s work on the subject, and that the sector would be in favour of skewing if it actually worked, but it doesn’t. Just shifting numbers has no tangible impact – a focussed strategy will need to start from a new base. This could then move to a skewing system once it starts to produce results. There are no good examples of skewing in practice at present. Targeting Social Need is more than just an administrative exercise, but there is a lack of political will behind it. Each Department needs to take it seriously. It was agreed that political will and dedicated resources are needed.

vi. Additional matters arising

Programme for Government – Dave Wall informed the meeting that the timetable is to be finalised by 7 December. It will be a difficult budget round and organisations can best influence the process by talking to individual Departments. It can be considered on the Planning Day, however there are difficulties in using the Forum itself as a consultation mechanism so we will not be submitting any kind of response.

Niall Fitzduff updated the Forum that he had attended a DEFRA Compact meeting in London . Alun Michael has asked that young people become more fully involved in policy development. What is the outcome of fora like this for the sector and communities? They may be organising a conference for funders and communities to look at roll-out – something the Forum could take on board.

5. Scottish Compact

The presentation given by Joanne Crone from the Scottish Executive and Stephen Maxwell of the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations is attached. Further information can be found at www.scotland.gov.uk/viu and http://www.scvo.org.uk/ .

Dave Wall welcomed the visitors and explained that they had been invited because it was felt that the situation regarding the promotion and implementation of their Compact was the closest relevant example for Northern Ireland . Following the presentation, he highlighted some of the parallels, including the tensions between partnerships and the advocacy role of the sector and the structure used for providing good practice guides. Low awareness is an equally difficult issue.

Members were interested to know the visitors’ views on how we could actually achieve culture change here? We have not gone as far as England in the extent of their Compact work, yet the Scottish system is very different as well as their Executive is not as isolated – they already have a level of political commitment. All Departments have signed up to the Compact but it is not clear how funding is being taken forward in this light due to ongoing three-year funding strategies. Stephen Maxwell explained that SCVO’s members are mostly large organisations with memberships of their own so there is lots of indirect contact and they can represent the sector credibly. Joanne Crone went on to explain that compliance has to be a symmetrical system, which can be used by either side of the agreement, otherwise they would be faced with a ‘them and us’ situation.

This led to discussion on how you can ask for compliance with the spirit of a document, rather than tangible objectives? Joanne Crone explained that any areas of contention in Scotland have actually been over the good practice guides rather than the principles of the Compact itself. They have found that there is value in pulling together all this evidence rather than simply relying on anecdotes, to use as evidence of how to support the Compact, and change it if necessary. Stephen Maxwell added that an arbitration process is seen as a step too far, and they do not use this method in England either. Being subject to judgement doesn’t sit with the overall ideals. Joanne Crone explained that the setting up of liaison officers in each department makes it easier for organisations to know where to go with a complaint without taking it to an official process.

A question was voiced on how the Compact could be promoted at community level, among very small low-income groups. These would be groups that have their relationships with the lower tiers of government and NDPBs, as well as other local entities such as the health service and police. Stephen Maxwell explained that the Compact covers all NDPBs and government agencies, and that some areas have even begun to develop their own local compacts. This may in turn give them access to a wider range of funding which could redress the balance in terms of a majority of groups having a very low income.

Members were interested to know why implementation is so focussed on the SCVO and VIU, rather than encouraging departments to meet with sectoral organisations in the form of bilaterals, as is done in Wales and recommended by the Taskforce. Joanne Crone explained that relationships are very different – some departments have good relationships and do hold bilateral meetings with relevant organisations. The main role for SCVO and VIU is supportive work and promotion of the Compact. The Implementation Strategy puts the onus on generic and intermediary infrastructure bodies and The Forum asked if there was any indication of awareness among public servants. Stephen Maxwell responded that the surveys done indicated awareness of around 30%, which had improved since the baseline survey. This is more than double the awareness among the sector.

The Scottish Executive Voluntary Sector Forum meets around every six months, and looks at generic issues such as the Compact, but the difference between it and the Joint Forum is that it only involves the VIU unless other departments are asked to attend on a specific issue.

A general point that came out of this discussion is the importance of devolution in bringing the Compact to life.

6. Taskforce on Resourcing the Voluntary and Community Sector

Dave Wall introduced his presentation, which is attached, by stating that Investing Together is a very challenging report for both government and the sector, and thanked David Lennox and his team for all their work. He pointed out that there is no formal consultation, however our discussions will be reported to the Minister.

(Item 7 on the agenda was lunch)

8. Working groups on Taskforce

The meeting divided into three groups to discuss the report in more detail, and looked at the following questions:

1. What are the key priorities identified in the Investing Together report?

2. What are your views on the recommendations which specifically impact on the Forum?

Notes of the discussions are attached, and were presented briefly as feedback to the reconvened meeting.

9. Partners for Change/ Themes for Next Stage Strategy

Jimmy Kearney presented the paper which has been produced by the Strategy Sub-group and which was circulated prior to the meeting (also attached). It is the first attempt at a way ahead for Partners for Change and has been given direction by the PricewaterhouseCoopers evaluation which recommended that the strategy be more outcome-driven with fewer objectives. He explained that the paper puts forward three options which are backed up by the key areas and themes. It sets out outcomes and outputs for the departments and the sector. What the group would like from the full Forum is an indication of which option they prefer, are they content with the themes and structure, how could actions from the sector be included and how can we achieve buy-in? The next stage in the process will be bilateral meetings with the departments, to be taken forward by the Sub-group. The strategy will of course also need to be tested against the outcomes of the Taskforce.

It was suggested that we need more time to read this paper in light of the Taskforce. General consensus was that the broad structure is right, however, resourcing the sector must be made a priority. It was decided that the Sub-group would meet again and look at the paper with reference to the Taskforce, then would send a new version out to members with a deadline for comments. This will then be discussed further at the Planning Day.

10. Big Lottery Fund

Dave Wall welcomed Neil Irwin from NICVA to the meeting, and Jack Palmer and Richard Holmes from DCAL. Neil Irwin gave a presentation on the views of the sector which had been gathered at a round table meeting – a copy is attached.

It was highlighted that the Taskforce had been such a good consultation process, which displayed commitment to the Compact, and Lottery issues shouldn’t be treated any differently. Concern was also raised about the definitions being used, which could have a different context in Northern Ireland .

Jack Palmer stated that DCAL appreciated the work done by NICVA, especially in such a short time, and that a copy of the NICVA paper has been sent round Departments asking them to take it into account – they are currently awaiting responses on this. This is so they can reflect the views of the sector in their lottery-related priorities and outcomes. Richard Holmes then clarified that the outcomes will have to be distilled, then passed to the Big Lottery Fund who will then consult with the sector and on Section 75. A report is expected in 2005.

It was again highlighted that the consultation process had not been good and that this appears to be a classic non-compliance issue for the Compact. Overall responsibility rests with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport in London as the Lottery is a reserved matter, even under devolution. However, even if the themes are not seen as best meeting our needs, the outcomes and priorities will be Northern Ireland-specific.

What we have lost is the Community Fund which had a specific Northern Ireland remit, yet the new fund is based on the principles of the New Opportunities Fund which was not the same.

11. AOB

Niall Fitzduff informed the meeting that the Carnegie Rural Community Development Commission will be visiting Northern Ireland on 3 and 4 November to meet sector representatives and departments. Lord Haskins will be chairing the meetings. Further information will be sent out to key organisations.

Members asked about the Charities Register. A report went to the Minister in July recommending that a registry and commission be considered. The Minister accepted these recommendations and internal consultation is now complete. A final paper will be going to the Minster within the next weeks, then there will be a full public consultation, and it will take around two years for the legislation to be enacted. Overall there was a general acceptance of the need for this to be taken forward.

Members were asked to take copies of the summary of the Partners for Change Evaluation to distribute among their own networks.

12. Dates of next meetings

The Planning Day takes place in NICVA on 16 November. Further details will follow.